Jenn's World

Rejection is part of a writer's life. Here are some websites to cheer you up about it!

inkygirl (rejection factoids and rejection humor--see pic.), Rejection Slips for the Ages (excerpts from a book containing famous rejection slips,) Hooray! My First Rejection Slip (message board musings from authors on their first rejection slips.)

One thing I think it's important to stress in the electronic age is that a beginning author should NOT take out his/her frustrations about editors, agents, and rejection slips in the public--and permanent--internet sphere. You never know who's reading, and you don't want to be 'that one author' who reads far too much into a form letter. Most of the authors you see complaining on certain websites end up looking like they're completely clueless. And when an agent googles my name to see what else I've written...I definitely don't want him/her seeing obscene complaints about the last agent, or the last 79 rejections I've recieved. (Just an example! I haven't really got that many rejections)

I've learned discretion the hard way, when friends of mine have stumbled on things I've written on other blogs and been hurt, and pledge that I'll never be that stupid again. Don't drink and blog is a another good piece of advice.

So, as I begin my epic journey into the novel rejection-o-sphere, I pledge the only thing you'll see from me publically is stuff about...well, probably figure skating. While I may be weeping tears into my pillow, I know how to keep my mouth shut. I might brag about any nibbles I get, but I probably won't. I will keep a running tally, though that I promise I'll publicize after I hit it big. I like my query/synopsis combination, so I expect I'll get a bunch of partial requests...only to end in a lot of "not quite right for us" because the market is so brutal. I can't allow myself to believe I'll get published my first novel out. It's because of my supersticion--if you believe bad things are gonna happen, they're less likely to happen. It's only when you get your hopes up that you get kicked in the shorts.

I'm not sure when I'll start sending things out, because my list of agents in ranking was on my broken laptop, so I only remember a couple of the ones at the top. (Which I'll, for obvious reasons, keep secret. No reason to annoy anyone not on the list...though anyone in my top twenty or so would be fabulous.)

There was one woman at the conference sitting next to me who had a 100 rejection slips before she found an agent. I was impressed, and hoping that she wasn't being represented by a Preditor. I don't know if my psyche could take that much pounding. We'll see, won't we?

In the mean time, I've found it hard to begin a new project. The prologue for my next novel's wicked awesome, though. But I can't quite get a grasp on my new characters yet, or the setting. It doesn't feel like it has the same magic as the old novel. Hopefully, I'll be able to find whatever's missing and fix it. Everything looks good in the outline, on paper, but it's just not fitting together. I tried to work on a Y.A. novel but it didn't go well, either.

I dunno. Maybe I should try and write my mystery. Cleanse my pallet. I think that it's just my head isn't properly wrapped around something yet. It's hard to go from a plot you've been kicking around for years to a plot/world you've only been kicking around for a month.

In other news, I'm not such a fan of the Mockingjay cover for the last book in the Hunger Games triology, which will be coming out in August. (Can't...wait...must...bribe...publisher...)

The other covers have been intense. Black. Red. Mockingjay just doesn't fit the pallet. It looks too...pastel.

I meant to blog about it last week when the cover was revealed and the news was fresh. But I didn't. Sue me. I'll be happy to refund all the money you paid me to blog...

(The text at the top isn't mine, by the way, but part of the image. I didn't get promoted to work at Scholastic this week, alas.)

Ooh, I've been waiting for the men's figure skating competition all year! And it was worth the wait. Last night was in-flippin-credible. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. I don't think there's ever been a field this deep and this strong. And oh, the pain. Joubert. Abbott. Ugh, you knew the instant the kid stepped out on the ice, his face looked terrified. I wanted to reach through the screen and hug them all.

One oddity: watch how many skaters have dark eyes. For a minute, it felt like walking into Randland. Beautiful dark eyes, and of course expected from many of the ethnicities, but I was just startled and wondered if they reflected the figure skating population statistically.

I always change favorites from year-to-year. Last year, I loved Lysacek and Contesti for their long programs. I hoped they would ditch this year's long programs and go back to what I think of as "classic hollywood" and "spaghetti western" because this year's just aren't as strong for me.

But this year, after the Grand Prix, I think I was turning Japanese. Daisuke Takahasi wrapped my heart around his little finger, even if he didn't win. He's such a beautiful, passionate skater. And Oda's long program is fantastic.

And I still like Lysacek. It kind of frustrates me that he's so underrated. He's World Champion (I never get sick of the clip where he's fist-pumping coming out of his sit spin--victory in his home town must have felt incredible) and Grand Prix Champion. He posted the second highest total score for a program all year--beaten only by Pluschenko at Russian nationals (and everyone knows the scores at national championships are inflated.) Yet he doesn't get any of the sponsorship or love that some of the other figure skaters get. Maybe he has a nasty personality, or maybe he just doesn't get the respect he deserves, I don't know. Maybe no one wants to be represented by a guy with puffy sleeves and feathers on his wrists. When I saw his short program last night, I almost jumped out of my seat and cheered.

In contrast, I've always thought Patrick Chan is overrated. He seems like a nice kid, but there's room to grow, and I never bought into him being a favorite to win, despite the Canadian media's swoons. He just...didn't do very well this season. I hope he grows from it and that his country will lay off on the expectations. You can't expect someone who's struggled all season to win games against juggernauts like Pluschenko.

At any rate, however good my three favorites are (who ended up 2, 3 and 4), I doubt they have a realistic shot at Pluschenko. The man is just too good a jumper. I admire his take-no-prisoners on the ice attitude and got amused by NBC's package showing him as a villain, but he lacks so many of the things I love in a figure skater--the footwork, the spins--that I can't help hoping for an upset. Even if it's an unrealistic hope. Pluschenko is just too great in terms of consistancy--though he looked surprisingly vulnerable last night, didn't have his usual verve.

I suspect he'll come back with a vengeance Thursday. Hopefully my favs will still be able to walk home with silver and bronze.

One figure skating program that you won't get to see Thursday, but that I love, is from0 Ryan Bradley, the alternate for the U.S. men. He's not as good as Abbott, Weir, or Lysacek, but he's still a sentimental favorite of mine anyway for his long program. The skaters who can use humor in their programs are always golden in my books.

A random piece of dialogue that came to me. Perhaps the opening to a romantic comedy involving nerds?

FIRST WOMAN: "Who would you rather do, Mario or Luigi?"

SECOND WOMAN: "Well, I've always had a thing for short Italian men in red overalls."

....

Which brings us to the question...what the hell is up with the raccoon suit, anyway? Everyone knows that raccoons don't fly. Thoughts?

Well, I was planning to cover the rest of the panels too, but my laptop decided to finally breathe its last gasp and die. I'm glad that it waited until my novel was done to do that.

I'll take it to a shop for repairs. Hopefully they can make it work again or at least get the data off. Most of my stuff is backed up, but some of it isn't.

Hope love, and laptop malfunctions. Naturally this will cut down on my blogging for awhile.

And we're back!

I spent the past hour listening to Brandon Sanderson. Random trivia--he writes on beanbag chairs. Ooh, and I think he might have remembered my name, which is super-cool. But I'm not sure because I interrupted him. (Damn it! Whenever I'm around famous authors I seem to lose all my social skills...)

Any mistakes in transcription are mine, not the speakers. Don't blame them! There are undoubtedly errors, and I apologize and kiss your feet asking forgiveness.

We're with Bob Defendi and Howard Taylor (shclock mercaenary)! Both have only had four hours of sleep, but are inebriated on caffeine. Ah...caffeine. I'm on the nightshift at the moment, so I'm used to being in bed by now. So I'm in the same place.

Topic: Interesting side characters.

HT: I suggested: Building interest in side characters through improvisational theater.

Inspired by a couple reasons: 1)Said-character: Ranger named Lucas not right in the head. He loves killing demons. Loves teaching small children to mortal. 2) A role-playing game. Starts in a jail where the last thing we remember was the tavern. We'd gotten real dwarven ale...three days ago. At some point and time, I cleric, was I set the out house on fire three days ago. The Jailer and him had a conversation "It had it coming!" Holy fire would not have worked on that outhouse if it had been pure!

BD: There was a bidet joke in there somweher too.

HT: Now it;'s coming back to me!

BD: And we were playing with an impressionistic twelve-year-old too.

HT: So we had to hide the poop jokes.

... he goes on to recommend the Rifftrax to Twilight.

Anyway, what I was going to suggest is what we get from you a couple of suggestions--in just barest forms--a side character from your novel. And we'll figure out what's wrong with them. Not what's wrong with them in the novel, but why you wouldn't want to meet them in real life.

Suggestions: Xenobiologist who has unknowingly picked up a parasite.

Poop jokes ensue.

Xenobiologist Meet: 70yrold circus performer.

More poop jokes. Laughter.

Setting: Central Park after Dark.

BD is the circus performer, HT is the xenobiologist.

BD: What you're doing there at the book is illegal.
HT: What city am I in?
BD: New York. Or that's where I am.
HT: Uh, what planet am I on?
BD: Uh...earth...I don't know what planet you're on...
HT: Oh yes, yes, central park, New York. I'm testing the water solluble quality of the soil behind this bush.
BD: Usually you do this with pants on.
HT: I do have my pants on, they're those things around my ankles.
BD: No, you're supposed to wear them up.
HT: Like you?
BD: Yes. But maybe a little lower.
.......stuff I missed...
BD: Well, I'm out of poop jokes.
.....
BD: Nice boots.
HT: Yes they are. (Makes lightsaber voices) See, this is how I get back to my bus.
BD: I might have some work to do.
HT: Do you have creatures who need studying?
BD: Yes. And we follow them around and train them.
HT: Do you have bushes? Soluble bushes?
BD: Well, this time--
HT:The bush is very absorbant, but not very soluble. It doesn't dissolve in water.

Something about clowns and vegetables....? Can't hear for laughter.

HT: I was under the impressiont hat would dissolve them and then re-exrude them in a more soluble form.
BD: No, we just do it as a warning to the others.
HT: Clowns breed quickly, then?
BD: I've heard they're pretty quick...

HT: Should we pause to learn what we've learned about these horrible people. I have no idea what your grandfather did at the circus, but I hope he was better than Bob at it. So...I'm an alien, because that fascinated m.

BD: My grandfather and his mind went to WWI and WWII and only one of them came back.

HT: So what do you like to see in a good side character?
BD: Good dialogue.
HT: Well, we didn't have much of that.
BD: Well what do you like in a side character?
HT: Good dialogue.
BD: What's good dialogue?
HT: It's unexpected.
BD: Well, there was that.

HT: Improvisional theater is never no. It's never cutting people off. It's yes, AND. If you have a piece of dialogue and you say, 'no, you can't do that,' then you don't delete it. You take that piece of dialogue and you expand on it.

BD: Oh, you mean real characterization, not random crap. (Laughter) Orson Scott Card talks about how its more realistic to have people jump to conclusions without the full explanation.

HT: Talks about in late, out early. Prunes the dialogue from the front.

BD: It's easier to prune dialogue than art.

HT: Writers of graphic novels can re-write and re-write and re-write but webcomix don't have the luxury.

Introduces Jake Black of Writing excuses fame, BD's boyfriend. JB: "I called him a man-mountain of love ONE TIME five years ago in this very room and I can't live it down."

HT: Recommends more in-late-out-early.

BD: The problem with side characters is that there's so little you can do with them. I mean how much was Elf doing in the beginning?

HT: HAd to write it in early, then keep it around.

BD: You don't have time to make the character three dimensional. Make them two-dimensional. The problem is, the authors use the WRONG two dimensions. Side characters are unexpected and memorable. For example, BD is a side character in waitresses lives. They always remember him because he makes the waitresses pick his salad dressing for him because someone once prophesied the world would end if he picked his own salad dressing.

HT: I'll have ranch.

BD: I don't believe the world will end...but you never know.

HT: You are one of the most i nteresting side characters in my life.

Something about salad dressing and concealed weapons?

Q: How long does it take me to decide which side characters I'm going to focus on in a story?

HT: About three strips. If a side character does something interesting enough that it feels like it needs to be resolved, I feel like I've made a promise to his readers.

BD: Something about the kissing curse--(Read Schlock Merc )

HT: I can't fulfill it too soon. Minor arc-ties into a main arc.

JB: Where's the line in your view between a side character and a main character? Do you ever create chars with the intent of spinoff?

HT: Up until the point I hired a colorist, the idea of spinoff was one of those entertaining fantasies that I had no hope of fulfilling. But now I realized that the franchise still has a lot of legs on it. All of my minor characters are main characters in their own stories. If their story is driving the plot, they become the main character. That's what I love about my gig: I'm not leasing this from anywhere else. For the next five issues, I can say Spidermen isn't the main char, Mary Jane is! Because SM is boring. All he does is shoot webs and ret-con himself every six years.

BD: Game design--whether or not they have three dimensions. The extra dimension makes the difference. They're the main character in my head when I'm writing. Anyone who had a significant part in the plot, I know them in my head. Side Keepers are usually "Inn Keeper #7".

HT: There was the odd realization that my character in Bob's game, a barbarian keeps picking up pets. The day I realized Bob was plotting out plot arcs for my pets, I got a little disturbed. They were actual side characters with actual debt.

BD: Cat is a prophet prophecied to see all cat-kind. And he hates the dog.

Cat poop jokes ensue.

BD: Just because you put something in there for a reason doesn't mean it has to STAY in there for the same reason. The reason can change. Had a watchman who ranted about money. Everybody in my writing group loved him so much, he had to have a plot. Howard's cat was a morality test. Rescued the kitten from a hole in a rain storm. I wanted to see if he'd rescued it.

HT: It's a kitten? What would I do, kill it? There's no XP in killing kittens!

BD: Howard said to me after the game session, I thought this cat would mean for.

HT: Oh, crap. This is my fault.

BD: Got out an author board and came up a cat. He's the cat of darkness, going to save all-cat time.

HT: Okay, so we hd the obligatory Lolcats joke.

BD: Writing group...listen to them. A critique group said "she's the bad guy." No, BD said, "she's the main character." No, says the groupie--she's only programmed to BELIEVE she's a main character. Every time the writing group thought she was good, he tossed in hints to the bad, and every time they thought she was bad, he'd throw in hints she was good.

HT: Elephants can be taught to paint pornography. Go ahead. google that.

BD: Not on BYU's network!

HT: African elephants are nasty-tempered. They are not petting zoo or friendly animals. They will stomp you dead. I was talking about uplifting a species--moral gag after moral gag. The one thing everything agreed on was uplifting african elephants was a mistake. Intelligent = ten tons of bad temper that's smart enough to go shopping. But a bunch of people responded WANTING to see the elephants. No, I don't want to draw an elephant! The eye level...the size...the panels are so small! Went and whined to Sandra. The comic this summer was the elephant-kind masochism,--don't take that phrase out of context--elephants stomped the people in the logical combination. The head of great big robot also came out of HT's laziness.

Q: When do you know when you should assign a story task to a side char vs. a main char.

BD: When you're going to kill them. There's a follow-up--is it supposed to matter? If you're going to kill someone, there needs to be enough investment making them poignant. I have a problem with game design because I want a side plot/b plot in every adventure. But I can't control what they do. For example, can't make chars fall in love.

HT: And he just can't depend on it. Lucas is not going to tell a love story.

BD: Well, a love of killing.

Well...to answer the question...I think it has to do with logic. I hated space above and beyond because you spent 10 mil training to shoot. He shoots better. Story fulfillment...is it more satisfying? Sometimes, I find it really satisfying to have some cabby come and save the world. Some guy comes in and turns the light switch off and that just de-powers the bomb.

HT: Like Return of the Jedi. Lots of stuff got rendered irrelevent when Lando blew up the deathstar. I mean, the Emperor would have died anyway. We're feeling happy because Luke redeemed his father--which is really impossible when you think about the sheer amount of evil vadar has under his belt--when the real hero was Lando and that funny-faced guy.

BD: That's because the original sapped all the tension out of blowing the death star. It happened once before, so this time, you can leave it to the side character. Empire's Luke's story is really boring. See Eldest. Eragon = Star Wars. Eldest = Empire Strikes Back. But the thing that the script doctor did is he did all that exciting stuff when Han and Leia, and then he mirrored it with Luke. Han's cave w/ space slug. Luke's cave...see it borrows tension.

HT: You can get away with having the side character perform about any plot point as long as your plot structure supports it.

JB: You take a side char like Lando, and he has to fit in the parameters. He can't be a jedi. If you're creating your own world, it's okay, but in someone else's world, like Star Wars, you have to play by other's rules.

HT: For instance, limited char growth.

JB: References Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan.

BD: Yeah, I think there are going to be a lot of heads on the floor by the time he's done.

Those rules apply to the writer as well. Look at Ender's Shadow. BD likes it more than the original Ender's Game (HERESY!!!!) Since the ending couldn't be a surprise, the secret allows a different prospective because Bean has to do the emotional processing.

JB: Hey! I wrote stuff in the Ender universe! I got to play with Peter and Valentine! (He's been doing story consulting for the Ender comics, by-da-by)

Howard pimps Jake.

Q: How well do you need to know their backstory to write it effectively.

HT: If you don't need dialogue tags, you're good. If not, you don't have his voice yet and you may need to meet his dad. If the dialogue is interchangeable, then he's one dimensional, not two.

BD: Argument has to be coherent. Minor characters, side characters, if they have a quirk that's memorable, that's all they need.

HT: Like not ordering their own salad dressing.

Non-Cliche Wizards (Wyzzzardz)

We're a little late coming into this one because my computer takes freaking 15 mintues to log on.

Panelists: Julie Clegg, Paul Gilette, Brandon Sanderson, Scott Parkin (sp?)

Q: How do we depart from the Gandalf archetype? Especially since stories reuqire a wise mentor?

BS: Taditional story focusses on someone young who doesn't know much about the world. Thus, they need the mentor as a rock, something to latch onto, the hang to. "It fulfills a great story function." Novel is a young form of literature...depending if you count the tale of Genji or not...scholars point to the birth of the novel in modern form in 1700s. Now, we're more mature. We want knowable protagonists instead of unknowable characters who stand above. We write the wizard's POV, make him fallible, instead of having the young mentor-needing presence.

SP: Keep him if you need 'em, lose him if you don't. No need to jettison him if it works for your story. Other side of ancient mentor is evil mentor. Wise crone can be good or evil.

BS: Jafar.

JC: Evil has a bigger evil.

PG: Subverted in my Iron Dragon series by filling different roles--religious priests, warriors. In the second, use a young mentor. Martial artist. Mentor doesn't need to be as weak as Raistlin. He can be stronger than a warrior. The wizard is the tough guy. Studying since a small child, got knowledge. No beard. Twist the wizard!

BS: I like to dig at the roots of these sorts of questions. One of the things that's bothered me is when people use Hero of a Thousand Faces as a guidebook. Even Lucas didn't work...shoe-horned it into the prequel triology. For example, the virgin birth. It was meant as a checkbox. NOT FOR THE STORY OF ITSELF. It didn't fit the story, it was shoe-horned it. Don't do that. If you're going to use the Campbellian characters, use it to make it a greater story, not just because "you have to have one." This mono-myth is what happens when people tell stories. They told the story that came naturally. They did not shoe-horn this stuff in. Look at the roots of the story--why do people like the wise mentor? What does it reprensent? Wonder Mystery Magic--he's the symbol of this. Where he works--the main characters aren't using magic in the same way. Dumbledore/Gandalf says: hey, hero, go do this and then he wanders off. It strains disbelief a little--why doesn't Dumbledore do it himself? Why not remove the character?

SP: What are you trying to accomplish with this character? Simple wisdom, power, magic. Common filler techniques--ancient prophecy. Serves the place of the quest-giver. (I hate ancient prophecy. I think it's overused.) Don't paint by numbers. Tell the story you want to tell. That's the problem with these panels, we're not going to hand you a script of a story that works without these wizards. Come up with the great story first.

BS: These are tools, not rules. Know what the wise mentor does and why people like them. He's part of your toolbox, but do them your own way if you need that where you told.

Survey: Are we trying to fing alternatives to the wise mentors (quarter of audience raise hands) fresh look at the genre (about the same amount)

BS: I think the same ppl raised their hands twice.

JC: You have to know the rules to break the rules. Talks about how you start with the stereotypes, write them, understand them, then once you know, you break it. So the next fantasy I'm going to write has the "old squirrel mentor" and as long as he has a nice long wells.

Dan Willis walks into the room and joins the panel...15 minutes late. Go Dan!

BS: Maybe we should talk about the fact that fantasy as a genre has gotten very tired of the same kind of stories. Then heard in fantasy genre that people are tired of vampires. He was wrong. Read Rob Newcomb--who flopped for reasons the publishers don't understand. Sanderson thinks he fails because telling the same story fails in comparison to Tolkein/Robert Jordan. But then again, Eragon worked. You never can tell what's going to be really big. Advice: stay away from architypes. This is a large genre that is largely unexplored.

JC: Is it ever okay to write it? Yes, if you're beginning. Try to twist them, after you've written and learned.

BS: Even before I was teaching beginning writers, I grew very tired of people saying "My Elves are different." My response: I've read lots and lots and lots of elves. Tad Williams has elves. Really good elves. But I, personally, am sick of them. (Note: there are a lot of people who will not read books with elves.) Same thing with wise old mentors. You can subvert it. For example, Wheel of Time: Gandalf shows up and Gandalf is a girl. Thom Merilin is Merlin with a mustache. And no magic. (I totally did not catch that until now.) Don't think you're being fresh and original just because your orcs do red skin.

SP: Look at American Gods--well known archetypes but made fresh. For example, make powerful but stupid. But they;re not what a novel is built on--they're things to help a story, not the story yourself.

Hands up on who's read American Gods. (SERIOUSLY?????? You guys need to broaden your literary horizons. There's like five of us.)

DW: (Dan Willis) The problem is with any story unless your protagonist sprung fully formed from the head of Zeus, your hero needs some training up. Someone needs to do that, and that's usually the mentor. But then the mentor needs a fatal flaw so the hero still has a role. Wizard replaces Google, as a world of knowledge. You can, of course, skip that part of the story, but then you have that. You still need the world's wikipedia (Hermoine) and that's what the mono-myth wizard does. (That's why mentors often die! Because the heroes lose the crutch). The best thing is to make the character a character with a capital C. Say...Yoda. We meet him, the goofy flake, we know he's powerful, but he doesn't show that face. "If you can make that guardian threshhold character interesting, you'll go much further than just taking the beard off."

JC: But Yoda's disguise was also a archetype, the fairy crone who hides in the forest and tests heroes to decide if they're worthy of their gifts. The old woman at the well. Yoda at the well.

BS: Roots of storytelling--two roots, told to people who weren't educated, so educated people represent something different, because there are more educated people. A weird thing happened right after Tolkein--wizard/science is hard to understand. We're not interested in him, we're interested in the mortal man who's like us. Not the godly people. Cinderella, not the fairy godmother. But after Tolkein, we become educated and we empathize more with Gandalf. Then you see the apprentice stories...the wizard. David Eddings, Terry Brooks. The young apprentice becomes Gandalf rather than Gandalf gives the quest and we go on it. But where is it going now? What's the next step? Start with the character already learned. We're going to start with the character right now. Because we're in the society where we have access to so much information.

SP: Once upon a time, the mentor character was the substitute for god. Not interested in local politics, relies upon the lesser creatures to make the world better. Now, we're not replacing god or seeking power from god. Do you require god to be an external power, or not? Does god have a speaking role in your stories?

PG: Actually, in the mythology, he's an angel. He's there to inspire men and elves. I didn't know that for years--I just thought he was an old man. When I understood what he was, that kind of blew my mind. He's the mouthpiece of a god as a why.

DW: I remember when I first read lord of the rings I was 12 or 13, I was struck by the fact Gandalf didn't do much. He never really did much magic. It's the difference you talk about--in the old tales, you have the guardian character who won't do what needs to be done because it needs to be done by the hero. In the modern series, its the guardian can't do the great thing because he can't. Dumbledore dies because of his own fatal flaw.

SP: Harry Potter--transcended the world of Voldemort and Dumbledore at the end, turning things into something more mundane.

BS: Another convention in MG is that you remove the authority figure so kids can have adventures. So there were extra constraints on Harry Potter--the kids have to have the adventure. Dumbledore usually has no good reason not to solve things but its a kid's book so Harry has to do it.

JC: Can you all think of some classic novels or recent stuff that breaks the boundaries well? The Riddlemaster Triology is the one he likes. As you go through the series, you're revealing more and more. He isn't a stereotype.

DW: Lloyd Alexander -- he does a great thing where he makes the wizard character a pig.

BS: Liked Robert Jordan's Moiraine. She was really interesting, followed some of the new paradigms later in the series, but in the first she was the weird, wise unknowable mentor. (I liked her better as the weird and wise). Part of the archetype: THE WIZARD ALREADY DIES. Told his sister Gandalf was going to die in book five or six.

JC: At least Lloyd Alexander's wizard made good bacon.

BS: All the wise archetypes kick the buckets during the climax. One thing I've tried to do with characters like this is I like getting into his head. I always wanted to get into Gandalf's POV. It changes the story if you do the POV because you have to make them flawed and interesting. We have these people in our lives--parents and scout masters and that--and their stories are interesting. At least to me.

You see a lot of Merlin stories in post-modern. That's kind of doing the same thing. (I loved MAry Stewart!)

SP: Alternative--look at eastern myth, or Greek And Roman, where the gods are advanced men but not advanced morally.

BS: But watch out for the "wise negro" / minority characters.

PG: Harry Dresden. He's broke. He's pretty interesting. Yet he should be the CEO of some major company or something. He's got skills, people, but he's the bottom of the barrel. He's got to survive.

BS: Yep, Harry Dresden is an awesome wizard but not Gandalf.

Comment: Dragonriders of Pern. The bard! He was very human, although he was a mentor. (He was my favorite character.)

SP: Human-driven power versus god-driven power.

DW: But when you have a protagonist as the magical character, you must develop the rules of magic well. Dresden--rules, like technology doesn't work around him. If you get into the Asian stuff, resist the temptation to end the books where the Asian books end. Your American audience will not be happy.

Shameless promotion! They do it!

Hey, Brandon knows what he's doing this time. He's doing two different readings from Way of Kings. Neato! He's doing the Superstars workshop. See more about it on his blog. Too pricey for me...

And yet ends another interesting episodes of Jennifer's blog.

DW blames the parking gods for his lateness. The parking is pretty difficult here--I got here a half-hour early to make sure I had a seat.

Or pink. Whatever.

Anyway, I'm finally back from my excessive vacation and am kicking off by blogging the BYU Life The Universe And Everything conference/seminar/thingy. Anyway, it's directed to those of us who are aspiring science fiction writers.

We'll start the morning off with "Fantasies without Magic." The panelists are: Larry Correia (Monsters Hunter International) Robert Defendi (game designer, works for people, Death by Cliche), Paul Genesse (Moderater--The Golden Cord --Iron Dragon series) and Brandon Sanderson (Mistborn and Gathering Storm, Elantris, etc.)

Forgive the typos, no time to clean up and I'm typing perched on my purse. Not the stablest of positions! Brandon's a little late. The other panelists joke about how we're all here for Brandon...but he'll be here in ten minutes.

They do their intros. Buy these guys books! They're awesome! [Note on my style--direct quotes are marked by "quote marks" and everything else is paraphrase. Parenthesis are my own comments.]

Q: Is it really fantasy if it doesn't have magic?
LC: Sure. Mine has monsters. My magic is in the background. "The real question is 'Can you have fantasy without ninjas?'" (Apparently Brandon Sanderson is going to buy the 300-people crowd doughnuts...or at least so LC promises on his behalf.)
BD: The line between fantasy and sci-fi is so blurred anyway. When it comes right down to it, what is magic? Gods? Fantastic elements versus traditional magic.
RD: George R.R. MArtin--very little magic. Apparently none. (He asks the crowd who's read GRRM and there's surprisingly little. Shame on you! SHAME!) As long as the world is different...
LC: Anne McCafferey--fantasy (kindof) without magic. Bioengerneered dragons are still dragons!

(I'm surprised no one's brought up Guy Gavriel Kay.) Description of GRRM-- "It's like getting punched in the face for 700 pages" (--LC?)

RD mentions that he was inspired to write a child-torture scene because of GRRM. Without dragons or magic, books become less escapist.

Q: How do you create a sense of wonder in the reader w/o magic?

BD: Character still confronting the impossible, overcoming that obsticle can create the sense of wonder.

Brandon Sanderson walks in and comments on Bob Defendi's beard.

"This is what ten a.m. looks like" says BS. "This is the only time of the year that I get up this early." He brags about his A parking pass.

This is Brandon's first panel ever as a guest of honor. Says he's on the wrong panel because he doesn't do this.

BS: Looking at the history of fantasy, fantasy started without magic. Conan/Tarzan are the earliest predecessors of fantasy. Gemmell, GRRM are the spiritual successors. "It's gritty, it's dirty and if there's magic, it's not understood." Setting can be sense of wonder. Tarzan had the dark continent. Conan had pre-history. John Carter of Mars, Disney's doing a film of...even though they don't have clothes on. Mars is like that.

LC: I got bashed on, compared to Conan's writer.
BS: Notes that guys in loinclothes hitting people with big swords were actually pretty eloquent.
etc., etc., etc., eloquence and nudity! Woohoo! Recommends reading it because it's better than it's expecting. "If you're going to use magic, use the place to give a sense of mystery." The far east may seem normal to us, but it can be very exotic to the characters, making it exotic to us.

LC: Doing an alternate history series coming out next year. Magic isn't wonder for the main character because she's used to it. Indoor Plumbing causes wonder. Skyscrapers become wonder.
Magic is not.

Q: At what point does magic become science?
BD: When you're Brandon Sanderson!

BS: Admits he's built his career on this. Time travel turns science into magic. Bring science back from the past and it becomes magic. Joel Rosenburg, Dragon and the George sort of thing. The same thing works in reverse--wizards can be scientists.

BD: Anytime your magic is so well understood, like the laws of physics, I think you blur the line.

(I disagree on this point. A well-defined magic system is still magic. No way it'll ever be science. Approaching something scientifically doesn't mean that the object approached is science.)

Argued with Dave Wolverton/Farland about speed runes versus endurance runes for horses, loves the nuts and bolts. The more you give me that, the more you enjoy it.

BS: Making magic a science sacrifices the wonder but gives more credance to plot. Gandalf and the vagueness of magic is okay. I have to find my sense of wonder somewhere else...usually settings. "That's one of the core ideas of fantasy: immersion." Realism, even with magic.

BD: Says he's now going to put a 'theoretical magician' in his book.

Q: When does science become magic.

PG: Speaks about an Egypt series, first book is 'Warlock' and everything he does seems like magic, but it's really not. (Sounds like a cool series! I wish I'd heard the name).

BS: Talks about GRRM. (That's what you get for coming in late, Brandon.) Calls it "proof you can do great, epic fantasy without this." His history is his strength. Brutal, but genius. Admits he couldn't read past the first book. Martin barely uses any.

(Martin does this because he has a great world. Note how many books he'd already written! I'd advise beginning authors to not expect themselves to do so well without the magic.)

Joe Abercrombie -- some magic, but heir to GRRM.

PG: Disappointed when GRRM started using more magic.
LC: Did a magic Deus ex Machina halfway through my book just because people told me I couldn't.
PG: Yes, and you swallow it because its built up.

BS: Dark urban. Fantasy gobbled up horror. Dark urban is its revision--low magic elements, like Twilight. Magical talents of vampires. "A lot of Vampire books aren't approaching it at all." Vampirism as science--STDs, blood disease. (I do like it when they talk about the science of vampires/werewolves/zombies. If the science has depth, its pretty cool.) Obviously Dresden files and those involve a lot of magic. Look at it: what do the readers enjoy. If it's not the magic,what is it?

LC: The sparkles?

BS: Wonder can come on events--what weird things would happen next.

Comment: Jonathan Strange & Mister Norrell does have the theoretical magician.

BS: Obviously, stole the idea.
LC: Is the epic quest for grant money?
BD: No, I want a magician who's like Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. (Audience shows love for Sheldon...I'm a Leonard girl, myself.).

Q: About Slipstream--

PG: Defines it. (Look it up, people.)
BS: Almost hallucinagenic, dreamlike qualities--sense of wonder and "sense of this person is stoned." Not magical, but a sense of stoned.

Other slipstream authors listed, included convention attendee L.E. Modisett.

Q: How do you define magic (Q from magic). (I always wonder why anyone asks this question. Who cares, really? Does it matter? It's like trying to define poetry...)

BS: Hard fight. Between science/magic. Star Wars gets tugged to pieces by both camps. "The line for me is someone breaks the line of physics as we understand them." Science fiction at least gives nod to what could exist.

(Odd, how this puts faster than light travel into the magic category.)

Other panelists agree.

LC: In a business sense, magic is whatever your publisher says it is. Pitched a book as epic fantasy with detailed rules, editor calls it "superheroes."
BS: Genre is a convention for booksellers, publishers and librarians. "It's a necessary evil in most people's eyes." Except the marketers... Familiar and strange balance act. Genre helds with the familiarity.
BD: Video Game marketing. It's an RPG because that's the marketing angle.

Comments: (Not sure where he's going...GRRM is an awesome writer, no duh)...GRRM has good characters, makes sympathy.

BD: Analysis on forums of GRRM...Magic is more ritual/religious than magical. Takes the place of the moral center? Ammoral characters.
BS: He makes my point about how GRRM has been doing this forever. "I think if people COULD figure out how GRRM writes, they would do it." Master of show, master of dialogue, master of characterize someone sharply, quickly, powerfully. Brilliantly brutal to his readers, but if he wasn't so good at characterization doesn't happen. Magic is not his strength. Characters were. Follow your skills! "That doesn't mean you have to do it GRRM or BS or LC or whoever's out there. Do it your own way!"

BD: Gem of wisdom: he's brutal to his readers because his characterization is so good.

(Wow...this is like the GRRM panel.)

Q: Did that Eqyptian dude believe he was a scientist or a magician?

PG: (Wilbur was the author's name). He thought the gods helped him, but he thought of himself as a man of knowledge rather than a man of magic. He thought his knowledge was a connection to the divine.

Q: How far should you take explaining the magic system before it becomes repetitious, obscure, annoying? (Good rule!)

LC: When the reader becomes bored. No hard and fast rule. Look at Mistborn
BD: I was just going to go there!
BS: I love you guys...
LC: Note, he uses the appendixes.
BS: Balance--have more information to give to those who want it, but not so much that they depend on it. BS relates it to a learning curve, how steep a learning curve--all depends on different elements. Erik Stephenson--learning curve punches you in the face. No right answer. Some people want no answers, some people want tables. Brandon tries to cater to both.

(I definitely am a reader who likes less detail in terms of magic, though more in terms of culture and creature evolution.)

BD: I remember how things worked in Mistborn, but not why. BS told us what mattered. The theory versus the practical stuff--practical stuff is more important.
BS: Establish a rule and stick to it. As long you stick to the rule, then you won't need to do why if you're not doing rule-based magic.

Final thoughts. Is it fantasy w/o magic.
LC: Yes. (Talks about signing, workshop.)
BD: It's fantasy if I say it's fantasy. (Shills for next panel).
BS: Fantasy - Alternative. Has his personal assistant tell his schedule. (HA!)
PG: Shills GRRM.

Wow, my back really hurts after that. I doubt I'll keep up that level of detail. Next is a keynote address from an artist in a room with no plugs, so no coverage for you! HAAHAHA

My brother's home from law school for the next month so I've been spending all my time with him, which is why I haven't blogged anything, and won't until February.

It's good to take a break from the computer, anyway, sometimes I feel like I've been tethered to it for too long.

In news, I love-love-loved HUNGER GAMES. I just finished Suzanne Collins' Y.A. book and I can honestly say it's one of the best things I've ever read. I'm a sucker for both games and violence, so Hunger Games scratched an itch that hadn't been scratched for me since Piers' Anthony's Adept Series (the first three of which are some of my favorite books ever written). I loved the Battle Royale manga despite the provocatively mature content, and so Hunger Games was like that for me in book form. It's amazing to me how an author can cram so much worldbuilding, characterization and just so much awesome into so few pages. I finished it in half a day or so while waiting in the airport and flying to Seattle. It's a reminder that you don't need 300,000 words to tell a brilliant story. If you haven't read this book. Go. Read. Now. Then come back. I'll wait.

I'm tempted to scrap my Y.A. novel right now because unfortunately, so many elements are so similar it's going to look like a rip-off. A bad rip-off, because Collins is so much more adept at handling emotion. I don't always have a deft hand there--sometimes I turn pathos into bathos.

Ah well, I can always finish the novel now and not send it out for a decade. Or hide my name under a pseudonym and never admit to writing it. NEVER!

Well, after I get that banged out of the way, the next project I'm looking at is a dark fantasy loosely based on the French Revolution but with gladiators and stuff like that. It'll be much darker in tone than Godsplay. The main POV character is a painter, another one is a drag queen. No clue on the title yet, except maybe "Wyrmborn" because the ancient kings claim they are descended from the blood of dragons and claim ancient powers because of that, to wield against the righteous-yet-fanatical revolutionaries. The problem is I've got five or six P.O.V. characters right now but not much of a plot, but I'm still in the research phase. Anyway, I'm excited about the idea.